Chuck was born in Cicero, Illinois, United States and is the elder son of Ruth and Charles McGill Sr. He is the older brother of fellow lawyer and titular character Jimmy McGill ("Saul Goodman"). Chuck is a successful attorney who runs his own law firm, Hamlin, Hamlin, & McGill (HHM), with business partner and friend Howard Hamlin. Chuck is semi-reclusive and believes that he suffers from electromagnetic hypersensitivity, while most likely suffering from anxiety or a somatic symptom disorder. He was amicably divorced from Rebecca Bois, who is unaware of his psychosomatic illness, a few years before the events of Better Call Saul.
Although in the first season it seemed that he was initially supportive of Jimmy, Chuck harbored resentful feelings toward him because of his conman past and charisma, in addition to Jimmy's approach to his career. From the second season onward, Chuck transforms into Jimmy's nemesis. His betrayal of and opposition to Jimmy and his subsequent death serve as a catalyst for Jimmy's transformation into Saul Goodman. Chuck's influence also deeply affects Howard Hamlin and Kim Wexler.[1]
Chuck's character development and McKean's performance throughout the first three seasons received critical acclaim, with many critics arguing that McKean gave the best performance on television throughout 2017.
Conception and development
Michael McKean had previously worked with Vince Gilligan as the recurring character Morris Fletcher who first appeared in The X-Files episode "Dreamland." The two kept in touch since about potential projects, although during that time much of McKean's work was in New York City for Broadway theatre while Gilligan was in Los Angeles working in television.
When Gilligan eventually contacted McKean about acting in Better Call Saul, he accepted the role knowing only the bare minimum regarding Chuck's electromagnetic sensitivity, since he was a fan of Breaking Bad and trusted Gilligan.[2]
When filming of Better Call Saul started in 2014, McKean had to initially split his time between playing Chuck and performing in All the Way, a Broadway play that coincidentally also starred Bryan Cranston who had played Walter White in Breaking Bad.[2] When McKean's casting was announced in April 2014, his character was deliberately misnamed as "Dr. Thurber," which McKean says was based on humorist James Thurber.[3] Chuck's real name, Charles Lindbergh McGill, was inspired by the aviator Charles Lindbergh.[4]
In interviews, McKean has stated that while Chuck did make efforts to foil Jimmy's attempts to get ahead as a lawyer, it wasn't always planned that Chuck would resort to underhanded tricks.[3] He described Chuck as a person who, until the onset of his belief that he suffered from electromagnetic sensitivity, had "followed all the rules" and who suddenly saw all he had slip away. For this reason, Chuck could not understand how, in contrast, someone like Jimmy who didn't follow the rules could be thriving.[5] Gilligan said that Chuck was originally planned as a Mycroft Holmes character, emotionally damaged but supportive of Jimmy's efforts, with Howard Hamlin to serve as the antagonist. However, as they filmed the initial episodes and saw the interactions, the writing team came to the idea of making Chuck the antagonist, while Howard would be more supportive of Jimmy, belying his outward rigor.[6]
To aid in their portrayals of the characters, McKean and Odenkirk discussed Chuck and Jimmy's relationships with their parents and the way their parents would have treated them.[5]
McKean stated that Gilligan and Gould told actors at the start of the season where generally they would like to see the characters go. Eventually, with little notice, Gilligan and Gould would give more specific direction to actors. Despite the short notice, McKean trusted that the showrunners were doing the right thing with the character.[3]
Around the time of filming the third season's seventh episode "Expenses," McKean received Chuck's "death call." Gilligan and Gould informed him that Chuck would die in that season's finale, the tenth episode, "Lantern." McKean had been expecting the call based on the character's arc and had no regrets or issues with it. He said, "Chuck did not belong in Jimmy’s universe by the time he becomes Saul Goodman, so I knew that it was very possible [Chuck would die before that]."[5]
Ten years before the events of Better Call Saul, Chuck defended his younger brother Jimmy after Jimmy defecated through the sunroof of a romantic rival's BMW, unaware the man's children were in the back seat.[9] As a condition of helping Jimmy, Chuck demanded that Jimmy abandon his work as a con artist and take a legitimate job in HHM's mailroom.[9] While working in HHM's mailroom, Jimmy was inspired by Chuck's skill as an attorney and decided to become one as well.[10] To that end, he secretly completed his college degree, attended a correspondence law school, and passed the bar exam.[11] He also became friendly, then romantically involved, with Kim Wexler, a law student who also worked in the mailroom and later became an associate attorney at HHM.[11] Unlike Kim, Jimmy was not hired by HHM as an attorney and left the firm's mailroom to build his own practice.[11]
Around the time of his divorce from Rebecca Bois, Chuck began to think he suffered from electromagnetic hypersensitivity and took a leave of absence from HHM.[12] During this time, Jimmy took care of Chuck by buying and delivering his groceries and newspapers every day.[13]
Jimmy continues to help Chuck with daily chores at his home. Chuck has taken a leave of absence but maintains his position as a senior partner. Howard attempts to buy out Chuck's share of HHM with a token payment, but Jimmy makes Howard back down by demanding that Howard pay Chuck the full value.
Jimmy stages a fake rescue of a billboard worker to drum up publicity for his firm. He removes Chuck's local newspaper from his daily delivery to hide the fake rescue from Chuck. Chuck resorts to stealing the neighbor's paper (leaving $5 as payment). This leads to the police breaking into his home and tasing him. Chuck is taken to the hospital, and the doctor proves to Jimmy that Chuck's illness is psychosomatic. Jimmy refuses the doctor's recommendation to have Chuck committed to a mental institution and insists that he can care for Chuck in Chuck's home.
Jimmy suspects the Sandpiper Crossing retirement community is overcharging its residents. He collects shredded documents from the trash and starts piecing them together at Chuck's house. Chuck is impressed with Jimmy's legal instincts and steps in to help, discovering key documents that prove Jimmy is correct. Jimmy and Chuck attempt to get Sandpiper to settle the case out of court, but Sandpiper's lawyers refuse. Jimmy and Chuck begin a class action lawsuit and continue to collect evidence, which rekindles Chuck's enthusiasm for the law. While working with Jimmy, Chuck absentmindedly goes outside to retrieve documents from Jimmy's car without his usual electromagnetic hypersensitivity precautions. Chuck suggests the case is too large for the two of them alone and that they should get HHM's help. Howard agrees to take the case and offers Jimmy a small of counsel fee and a percentage of the judgment or settlement but cuts him out of active participation.
Jimmy discovers that Chuck secretly used Howard to get him off the case—the same way Chuck used Howard to block Jimmy from becoming an attorney at HHM. Jimmy confronts Chuck, who tells Jimmy that he doesn't consider him a "real lawyer" since he is still the same "Slippin' Jimmy" from Cicero. Jimmy cuts ties with Chuck and arranges for Howard to take over Chuck's care.
Howard assigns Ernesto to care for Chuck. As the Sandpiper case grows, HHM brings in Davis & Main to assist. D&M hires Jimmy as an associate due to his familiarity with the case and rapport with the clients.
Chuck becomes suspicious after Jimmy uses questionable tactics to obtain new plaintiffs. Jimmy produces a television ad to reach even more potential plaintiffs and airs it without approval from Davis & Main. Jimmy decides to quit and behaves in a way that forces Davis & Main to terminate him without cause.
Kim, who knew of Jimmy's ad but did not inform the partners at HHM, is reassigned to entry-level document review work. To regain Howard's favor, she brings in a new client, Mesa Verde bank. Despite this, Howard keeps Kim in document review. Kim leaves HHM to start her own firm in an office space shared with Jimmy. She initially persuades Mesa Verde to become her client, but Howard and Chuck succeed in retaining Mesa Verde's business.
Chuck's electromagnetic hypersensitivity symptoms reappear as the result of his trip to HHM's offices to meet with Mesa Verde's president and counsel. Ernesto calls Jimmy for help and Jimmy offers to stay with Chuck overnight. Jimmy uses the opportunity to alter documents Chuck has prepared for a new Mesa Verde branch application. When the state banking board reviews the application, it discovers the errors, which results in a delay. Mesa Verde's president and counsel take the bank's business to Kim. Chuck immediately suspects Jimmy sabotaged him. Kim infers Jimmy's guilt and tells him if he left any evidence, Chuck will find it. Jimmy goes to the copy store where he altered the documents, intending to bribe the clerk for his silence. Ernesto is already there, having investigated copy stores throughout Albuquerque on Chuck's behalf. Ernesto leaves to pick up Chuck and bring him back to speak with the clerk. Jimmy bribes the clerk, then waits across the street for Chuck to arrive. Chuck attempts to question the clerk, but his electromagnetic hypersensitivity causes him to collapse and hit his head on the counter. Jimmy hesitates about whether to reveal his presence, but enters the store, administers first aid, and has the clerk summon an ambulance. At the hospital, Chuck wonders how Jimmy was on the scene so quickly, and Ernesto falsely claims to have called him out of concern for Chuck's health. Chuck later fakes a major mental breakdown, causing Jimmy to confess to the document tampering in an effort to calm Chuck down. After Jimmy leaves Chuck's home, Chuck reveals a hidden voice recorder, which he activated before Jimmy's arrival.
Chuck promises Jimmy consequences for his Mesa Verde fraud. Chuck and Howard discuss the recording, which Howard says is not admissible in court, but Chuck arranges for Ernesto to hear it, then swears him to silence. As Chuck expected, Ernesto tells Kim, who then tells Jimmy. Unsure of Chuck's plan, Kim wants Jimmy to let Chuck make the first move, but Jimmy breaks into Chuck's house and destroys the recording in the presence of Chuck, a private investigator, and Howard, resulting in Jimmy's arrest. Chuck suggests to the assistant district attorney that Jimmy could avoid prison by confessing to the break-in and making the confession available to the state bar association. With Jimmy facing disbarment, Kim offers to help him fight the charges.
Chuck admits to Kim that he has a copy of the recording and intends to use it at Jimmy's bar disciplinary hearing, which means Jimmy and Kim will be able to cross-examine him after he authenticates it. Kim cancels the repairman Chuck had called to fix the door Jimmy destroyed during the break-in and Jimmy asks Mike Ehrmantraut to pose as a repairman; Mike fixes the door while clandestinely photographing Chuck's home to document his bizarre living conditions. The hearing room is prepared for Chuck's testimony, including turning off all electrical devices and storing cell phones outside the room. Jimmy invites Chuck's ex-wife Rebecca to the hearing, claiming Chuck is in distress and needs her help, but Chuck sees it as an attempt to rattle him before he testifies. When Jimmy cross-examines Chuck about how sensitive he is to electricity, Chuck suspects a trick and accuses Jimmy of keeping his cell phone. Jimmy then reveals that he had Huell Babineaux secretly place Jimmy's cell phone battery in Chuck's pocket, and Chuck carried it for more than an hour without noticing. The suggestion that his illness is mental unnerves Chuck, who launches an extended tirade about Jimmy; he realizes too late that his outburst has shocked the entire courtroom into silence.
Jimmy is given a year's suspension, but not disbarred. Chuck shutters himself in his home, and Rebecca tries to get Jimmy to help her talk to him, but Jimmy refuses. Howard suggests Chuck consider Jimmy's suspension a victory and move on, and Chuck seems to agree. The possibility that his illness is psychosomatic leads Chuck to begin seeing Dr. Cruz, a therapist who helps him cope with his symptoms to the point where he can walk outside and perform chores such as grocery shopping.
When Jimmy meets with his malpractice insurer to obtain a refund on his premium, he finds that his policy must remain in effect during his suspension. He feigns an emotional breakdown about Chuck's condition, which prompts the insurance company's representatives to meet with Howard and Chuck. The insurers inform them that HHM's malpractice rates will rise substantially unless another attorney is assigned to constantly supervise Chuck. Chuck wants to fight, but Howard encourages him to retire. Chuck then sues HHM, hoping this will force Howard to back down. To his surprise, Howard buys out Chuck's share of the partnership, using personal funds and loans to make the first of three $3 million payments. Howard then announces that Chuck has retired, effective immediately.
When Kim is hospitalized after a car crash, Jimmy tries to make amends with Chuck but Chuck rebuffs him, saying that Jimmy was never really all that important to him. Chuck's EHS symptoms reemerge and he becomes obsessed with finding a device that is causing his electric meter to run. He removes all his appliances, tears the walls open to remove the wiring, and finally destroys the meter. Having reached his breaking point, Chuck sits at his desk and kicks it until he knocks over a gas lantern, setting his house on fire.[14]
Chuck dies in the fire he set. Jimmy is shocked at Chuck's death and believes himself to be at fault because of his interaction with the insurance company. Howard believes Chuck's death was his fault because he forced Chuck to retire. Upon hearing this, Jimmy allows Howard to shoulder the blame and regains his usual upbeat demeanor. Chuck leaves most of his estate to his ex-wife and $5,000 to Jimmy, which is just enough to prevent him from contesting the will. When Kim picks up Jimmy's inheritance check, Howard gives her a letter Chuck wrote to Jimmy. Kim eventually gives it to Jimmy, who reads it in her presence. The letter is undated but was apparently written while Jimmy was working in the HHM mailroom. It praises Jimmy's efforts to leave his conman past behind and work an honest job. Jimmy dismissively calls it "nice", but Kim is visibly moved by it. Jimmy learns HHM is struggling financially because of the payments due to Chuck's estate, and because recent events caused them to lose clients.
A year later, Jimmy attends his reinstatement hearing and is surprised to learn that his suspension will continue because he failed to address the conflict with Chuck during questioning from the panel members. Jimmy appeals, and in preparation for the hearing Kim helps him fake several public displays of grief over Chuck's death. At the appeal, Jimmy begins to read from Chuck's letter, then stops and gives an impromptu speech in which he vows to be worthy of the McGill name if reinstated. Jimmy's appeal succeeds, but he reveals to Kim that the speech was insincere and he plans to practice law as Saul Goodman.
Chuck appears in two flashbacks. The first is in "Piñata". In 1993, the staff at HHM congratulate pre-illness Chuck after he argues obscure case law to successfully close a lucrative case for the firm. The reception Chuck receives serves as a catalyst for Jimmy's subsequent legal studies, which he carries out in secret.[15] In the second one, featured in the season finale "Winner", Chuck appears with Jimmy before the board of bar examiners during the admission of new attorneys in 1998 and provides Jimmy's ritual introduction and character reference. After the ceremony, Chuck attends a celebration for Jimmy at a karaoke bar. After Jimmy persuades an initially reluctant Chuck to sing "The Winner Takes It All" with him, Chuck takes center stage from his brother. The scene cuts to both of them at Jimmy's home, drunk and singing.[16]
Chuck does not appear, but his life and death continue to affect Jimmy, Howard, and Kim. Jimmy has fully embraced the Saul Goodman alias he used while selling prepaid phones, telling Kim that it gives him an instant client base for a criminal law practice. When Kim tries to talk him out of practicing law as Saul, Jimmy indicates that it is necessary if he is to escape the shadow of Chuck's professional legacy. Chuck becomes Kim's posthumous brother-in-law when she marries Jimmy, a tactic that enables Jimmy to tell Kim the truth about his work as Saul by attaching spousal privilege to their conversations.[17]
Howard proposes hiring Jimmy at HHM, assuring him that the feud was between Jimmy and Chuck, not the firm. Jimmy is unsettled by the reminder of his past and refuses Howard's offer. Jimmy is so unnerved that he irritates Howard by using bowling balls to vandalize his car and prostitutes to disrupt his business lunch with Clifford Main. When Howard confronts Jimmy and rescinds his offer, Jimmy responds by lambasting Howard for causing Chuck's death and angrily tells him that as Saul Goodman, he has grown too big for the constraints of a job at HHM.[17]
When Howard sees Kim at the courthouse, she tells him she quit Schweikart and Cokely and her work for Mesa Verde so that she can concentrate on pro bono criminal defense cases. Howard assumes Jimmy is behind this decision and tells Kim about Jimmy's recent harassment campaign against him. Kim laughs at Howard, says she is insulted by the idea that she cannot decide for herself, and tells him she knows Jimmy better than he does. Howard tells Kim that Chuck knew Jimmy better than anyone else.[18]
When Cary, a new HHM employee, drops several cans of soda while preparing for the mediation session connected to the Sandpiper lawsuit, Howard shows him the trick of rotating the can several times to prevent it from exploding when it is opened, a method he says he learned from Chuck. Howard goes on to tell Cary that Chuck was the greatest legal mind he's ever known. While confronting Jimmy and Kim after their plot humiliates him and forces a settlement of the Sandpiper case, Howard reminds Jimmy and Kim of Chuck's view that Jimmy cannot stop himself from causing harm to everyone around him.[19]
In the series finale, Chuck appears in a flashback set before the events of Better Call Saul began, with Jimmy helping him manage his EHS symptoms by bringing him food deliveries. When Chuck asks why he does it, Jimmy says that they are brothers and that Chuck would do the same for him, which makes Chuck look very uncomfortable. Jimmy is ready to leave but Chuck insists that Jimmy stay and talk to him, which Jimmy does with visible reluctance. Chuck asks if Jimmy ever considered a different life path, to which Jimmy (perceiving that Chuck is trying to get him to give up his dream of a legal career) retorts that Chuck never changed his path and glumly moves to leave the apartment. Before Jimmy leaves, Chuck says, "we always end up having the same conversation, don't we?"[20]
The first season episode "Pimento" received critical acclaim, with many critics praising the performances of Bob Odenkirk and McKean. Roth Cornet of IGN gave the episode a 9.0 rating, concluding: "Better Call Saul revealed the betrayal that may very well be at the heart of what turns Jimmy McGill into Saul Goodman, as this stunningly crafted story continues to unfold."[21]
The third season episode "Chicanery" received universal acclaim, with some critics considering it a series best. Terri Schwartz of IGN awarded the episode a perfect 10 out of 10, calling it "the best episode of Better Call Saul to date".[22] It holds a perfect 100% on Rotten Tomatoes with an average score of 9.5/10 based on 12 reviews. The site consensus reads: "The war between Jimmy and Chuck comes to an unprecedented climax in the heartbreaking, sober, and defining 'Chicanery', an episode that clearly cements Better Call Saul as essential television."[23]TVLine named McKean the "Performer of the Week" for his performance in this episode, writing it was the "finest showcase yet for his fascinatingly layered performance as Jimmy's brother Chuck McGill."[24] Donna Bowman of The A.V. Club, who gave the episode an "A" rating, praised the courtroom scene, saying: "it isn’t just to give us the satisfaction of a courtroom drama, the neat ending where the truth comes out. The brilliance of this structure is to give us a slow-motion view of the heavens falling, an outcome methodically pursued by Kim and Jimmy, which nevertheless seems to give them no satisfaction."[25]
Many critics were disappointed when McKean, who was said to have given "one of the best performances by anyone in TV all year", failed to secure an Emmy nomination in 2017 while his co-star Jonathan Banks did.[26][27]
Matt Zoller Seitz of Vulture considers him to be the Better Call Saul equivalent of Breaking Bad character Skyler White.[28]
In 2020, Screen Rant ranked him #9 among main characters for likeability, only above Hector Salamanca. It wrote: "The first few seasons of the show go into a lot of detail showing how Jimmy lost his way in his career as an honest lawyer. A big part of the issue was due to his own brother, Chuck McGill. Chuck is a successful lawyer in his own right but instead of being proud of Jimmy following in his footsteps, he tried to hold him back."[29]
James Morgan "Jimmy" McGill, better known by his business name Saul Goodman, is a fictional character created by Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould and portrayed by Bob Odenkirk in the television franchise Breaking Bad. He appears as a major character in Breaking Bad (2009–2013) and as the titular protagonist of its spin-off Better Call Saul (2015–2022).
Better Call Saul is an American legal crime drama television series created by Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould for AMC. Part of the Breaking Bad franchise, it is a spin-off of Gilligan's previous series, Breaking Bad (2008–2013), to which it serves primarily as a prequel, with some scenes taking place during and after the events of Breaking Bad. Better Call Saul premiered on AMC on February 8, 2015, and ended on August 15, 2022, after six seasons consisting of 63 episodes.
"Uno" is the series premiere of the television series Better Call Saul, the spinoff series of Breaking Bad. The episode was written by series creators Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould, and directed by Gilligan. In the United States, the episode aired on February 8, 2015 and lasted 50 minutes and 55 seconds, on AMC. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on streaming service Netflix in several countries.
"Pimento" is the ninth and penultimate episode of the first season of the AMC television series Better Call Saul, the spin-off series of Breaking Bad. The episode aired on March 30, 2015 on AMC in the United States. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on streaming service Netflix in several countries.
Kimberly "Kim" Wexler is a fictional character in the television series Better Call Saul, a spin-off of Breaking Bad. Kim is primarily portrayed by Rhea Seehorn, and was created by Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould. An intelligent and proficient lawyer, she is the confidant and love interest of Jimmy McGill / Saul Goodman, whom she later marries. Kim's characterization and Seehorn's performance have received critical acclaim, earning her two Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Drama Series nominations.
"Rebecca" is the fifth episode of the second season of the American television drama series Better Call Saul, the spinoff series of Breaking Bad. Written by Ann Cherkis and directed by John Shiban, "Rebecca" aired on AMC in the United States on March 14, 2016. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on streaming service Netflix in several countries.
"Fifi" is the eighth episode of the second season of the AMC television series Better Call Saul, the spinoff series of Breaking Bad. The episode aired on April 4, 2016 on AMC in the United States. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on streaming service Netflix in several countries.
"Nailed" is the ninth and penultimate episode of the second season of the AMC television series Better Call Saul, the spinoff series of Breaking Bad. The episode aired on April 11, 2016 on AMC in the United States. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on streaming service Netflix in several countries.
"Mabel" is the third-season premiere of the American television drama series Better Call Saul, the spinoff series of Breaking Bad. Co-written by series creators Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould and directed by Gilligan, the episode aired on April 10, 2017 on AMC in the United States. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on streaming service Netflix in several countries.
"Chicanery" is the fifth episode of the third season of the AMC television series Better Call Saul, the spinoff series of Breaking Bad. The episode aired on May 8, 2017, on AMC in the United States.
"Slip" is the eighth episode of the third season of the AMC television series Better Call Saul, a spin-off series of Breaking Bad. The episode aired on June 5, 2017 on AMC in the United States. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on the streaming service Netflix in several countries.
"Lantern" is the tenth and final episode of the third season of the American television drama series Better Call Saul, the spinoff series of Breaking Bad. Written by Gennifer Hutchison and directed by series co-creator Peter Gould, "Lantern" aired on AMC in the United States on June 19, 2017. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on streaming service Netflix in several countries.
The second season of the American television series Better Call Saul premiered on February 15, 2016, and concluded on April 18, 2016. The ten-episode season was broadcast on Monday nights in the United States on AMC. A spin-off-prequel of Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul was created by Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould, both of whom also worked on Breaking Bad.
The third season of the American television drama series Better Call Saul premiered on April 10, 2017, and concluded on June 19, 2017. The ten-episode season was broadcast on Monday nights in the United States on AMC. A spin-off of Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul was created by Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould, both of whom also worked on Breaking Bad.
"Fall" is the ninth and penultimate episode of the third season of the AMC television series Better Call Saul, the spinoff series of Breaking Bad. The episode aired on June 12, 2017 on AMC in the United States. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on streaming service Netflix in several countries.
Howard Hamlin is a fictional character who appears in the crime drama television series Better Call Saul, a spin-off prequel of Breaking Bad. He is portrayed by Patrick Fabian and was created by Vince Gilligan and Peter Gould.
"Piñata" is the sixth episode of the fourth season of the AMC television series Better Call Saul, a spin-off series of Breaking Bad. The episode aired on September 10, 2018, on AMC in the United States. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on streaming service Netflix in several countries.
"Winner" is the tenth and final episode of the fourth season of the AMC television series Better Call Saul, the spinoff series of Breaking Bad. The episode aired on October 8, 2018, on AMC in the United States. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on streaming service Netflix in several countries.
"Namaste" is the fourth episode of the fifth season of the AMC television series Better Call Saul, a spin-off series of Breaking Bad. The episode aired on March 9, 2020, on AMC in the United States. Outside of the United States, the episode premiered on the streaming service Netflix in several countries.
1 2 "Transcript, 01x10 - Marco". Better Call Saul Transcripts. Forever Dreaming. April 7, 2015. Archived from the original on March 28, 2022. Retrieved April 2, 2022.
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