Diana Gould–Margaret Thatcher exchange

Last updated

External videos
Diana Gould speaking to Margaret Thatcher, 24 May 1983.jpeg
Diana Gould speaking to Margaret Thatcher (right) and Sue Lawley, in the BBC's Lime Grove Studios, 24 May 1983
Nuvola apps kaboodle.svg Margaret Thatcher on Nationwide questioned over the Belgrano on YouTube

An exchange on 24 May 1983 between Diana Gould, an English schoolteacher and former Women's Royal Naval Service meteorological officer, and British prime minister Margaret Thatcher was voted in 1999 as one of the most memorable moments in British television. [1] Appearing as a member of the public on BBC Nationwide 's On the Spot live election special, Gould confronted Thatcher over the sinking of the Belgrano, an Argentine warship, during the 1982 Falklands War between the United Kingdom and Argentina. [2] [3]

Contents

ARA General Belgrano, a cruiser, sank with the loss of 323 lives on 2 May 1982, after Thatcher gave the order to attack it when it sailed near a 200-mile exclusion zone the British had declared around the Falkland Islands. It was hit by two Mark 8 torpedoes launched by HMS Conqueror, a nuclear-powered hunter-killer submarine. The sinking was controversial, in part because of a dispute as to whether the ship had been heading towards or away from the exclusion zone when it was hit. Gould believed it had been sailing away from the exclusion zone. It was made public in 2011 that General Belgrano had in fact been ordered to sail towards it. [4] [5]

The exchange between Thatcher and Gould became iconic, remembered because of Gould's persistence in asking why Thatcher had given the order, which seemed to rattle the prime minister. [6] It was described as "the day Margaret Thatcher met her match". [7] Thatcher was reportedly angry that the BBC had allowed the question to be asked. [8] Her husband, Denis Thatcher, told the producer that the BBC was run by "a nest of long-haired Trots and wooftahs". [9] [10] Gould wrote a book about her experience, On the Spot: The Sinking of the Belgrano (1984).

Diana Gould

Diana Sydney Gould ( née  Prigg; 18 April 1926 – 3 December 2011) was born in Clifton, Bristol. After attending Howard Gardens Grammar School in Cardiff and winning a scholarship to Cambridge, she studied geography at Newnham College, Cambridge, and graduated with first-class honours. She was also awarded blues for hockey, swimming, and diving. After Cambridge, she became a meteorological officer in Cornwall with the Women's Royal Naval Service and married a fellow serviceman, Clifford Gould of the Fleet Air Arm. In 1955, after leaving the navy, Gould became a part-time PE teacher in Cirencester. [8] Her husband also became a teacher, working at Powell's School and Stratton Primary School in Cirencester. The couple had four children. [11]

Gould had studied the Falklands and the Antarctic at Cambridge and had closely followed the discussions about the Belgrano's position when it was hit. [12]

Nationwide

During a live election-special episode of Nationwide's On the Spot on 24 May 1983, the prime minister had agreed to take questions from pre-selected members of the public sitting in BBC studios around the country. Gould had been invited after writing to the show, although her husband said later that her application had been accepted "much to her horror". [3] She came to the meeting prepared; two days before the programme, she telephoned Tam Dalyell, a Labour MP who had been pressing for information about the sinking, and asked him to brief her. [12]

Thatcher and Sue Lawley, the anchor, were in the BBC's Lime Grove Studios in Shepherd's Bush, west London, where the Prime Minister took questions from 18:25 until 19:00. Gould, in the BBC's Bristol studio, was the fourth member of the public to be invited to speak. "Mrs. Thatcher," she asked, "why, when the Belgrano, the Argentinian battleship, was outside the exclusion zone and actually sailing away from the Falklands, why did you give the orders to sink it?" Thatcher replied: "But it was not sailing away from the Falklands. It was in an area which was a danger to our ships and to our people on them." [13]

Naval forces in the South Atlantic, 1-2 May 1982 ARA.Belgrano.sunk.svg
Naval forces in the South Atlantic, 1–2 May 1982

Gould said that the ship had been "on a bearing of 280 and it was already west of the Falklands". Thatcher continued to insist that the ship had represented a danger to British troops, and that the Argentine government had been warned that any ships representing a danger within a certain area were vulnerable. Gould pressed the Prime Minister several times to clarify whether the ship had been sailing away from the Falklands, but Thatcher avoided repeating that it had not. She said the full facts would be published in about 30 years, adding: "I think it could only be in Britain that a Prime Minister was accused of sinking an enemy ship that was a danger to our navy, when my main motive was to protect the boys in our navy." [13]

Gould suggested the sinking had put an end to a Peruvian peace proposal, but according to Thatcher, the proposal had not arrived in London until after the sinking. At several points the women clearly became irritated with each other. Gould said at one stage: "That is not good enough, Mrs. Thatcher," to which Thatcher replied: "Would you please let me answer?" [13]

Directly after the interview, Thatcher apparently talked about abolishing the BBC. [14] Denis Thatcher was said to have had a row with BBC staff, telling Roger Bolton, the programme's editor, that the BBC was run by "pinkos" and "a nest of long-haired Trots and wooftahs". [9] [8] [15] The couple's daughter, Carol Thatcher, called it "an example of the most crass nastiness and discourtesy shown to a Prime Minister in an election programme". [9] A 1999 British poll about memorable television spots placed the exchange at number 19. [1] Readers of the Radio Times voted it the ninth-best interview. [8]

Aftermath

Belgrano Action Group

Location of Ascension Island Ascension Island Location2.jpg
Location of Ascension Island

After the exchange, Gould became involved with the Belgrano Action Group, an activist group set up by Tam Dalyell, Clive Ponting and others. In 1986 she sat on the organising committee of their informal public inquiry into the sinking, held on 7 and 8 November that year in Hampstead Town Hall. [16]

Thorp report

Thatcher's statement that the public would know the full facts in 30 years may have been a reference to a report she had requested from Major David Thorp, who was in charge of signals intelligence on HMS Intrepid during the war, sailing near Ascension Island.

Titled The Sinking of the Belgrano, the report has not been published, but Thorp wrote in his book The Silent Listener (2011) that General Belgrano had been ordered to sail into the exclusion zone to rendezvous with other ships, possibly for a pincer attack against the British, and not to her home port as the Argentine government claimed at the time. [4] [5] [17] Thatcher had read the report, but she did not make the information public. According to the Daily Telegraph, she may not have wanted to disclose the extent of Britain's eavesdropping. [5]

Related Research Articles

<span class="mw-page-title-main">Falklands War</span> Undeclared war between Argentina and the United Kingdom in 1982

The Falklands War was a ten-week undeclared war between Argentina and the United Kingdom in 1982 over two British dependent territories in the South Atlantic: the Falkland Islands and its territorial dependency, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. The conflict began on 2 April 1982, when Argentina invaded and occupied the Falkland Islands, followed by the invasion of South Georgia the next day. On 5 April, the British government dispatched a naval task force to engage the Argentine Navy and Air Force before making an amphibious assault on the islands. The conflict lasted 74 days and ended with an Argentine surrender on 14 June, returning the islands to British control. In total, 649 Argentine military personnel, 255 British military personnel, and three Falkland Islanders were killed during the hostilities.

<span class="mw-page-title-main">Margaret Thatcher</span> Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1979 to 1990

Margaret Hilda Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher, was a British stateswoman and Conservative politician who was Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 1979 to 1990 and Leader of the Conservative Party from 1975 to 1990. She was the longest-serving British prime minister of the 20th century and the first woman to hold the position. As prime minister, she implemented economic policies known as Thatcherism. A Soviet journalist dubbed her the "Iron Lady", a nickname that became associated with her uncompromising politics and leadership style.

ARA <i>General Belgrano</i> Argentine cruiser, sunk 1982, Falklands War

ARA General Belgrano (C-4) was an Argentine Navy light cruiser in service from 1951 until 1982. Originally commissioned by the U.S. Navy as USS Phoenix, she saw action in the Pacific theatre of World War II before being sold to Argentina. The vessel was the second to have been named after the Argentine founding father Manuel Belgrano (1770–1820). The first vessel was a 7,069-ton armoured cruiser completed in 1896.

<span class="mw-page-title-main">Tam Dalyell</span> Scottish Labour Party politician (1932–2017)

Sir Thomas Dalyell, 11th Baronet, known as Tam Dalyell, was a Scottish Labour Party politician who was a member of the House of Commons from 1962 to 2005. He represented West Lothian from 1962 to 1983, then Linlithgow from 1983 to 2005. He formulated what came to be known as the "West Lothian question", on whether non-English MPs should be able to vote upon English-only matters after political devolution. He was also known for his anti-war, anti-imperialist views, opposing the Falklands War, the Gulf War, the War in Afghanistan and the Iraq War.

<span class="mw-page-title-main">Nicholas Ridley, Baron Ridley of Liddesdale</span> British Conservative Party politician and government minister

Nicholas Ridley, Baron Ridley of Liddesdale,, was a British Conservative Party politician and government minister.

HMS <i>Conqueror</i> (S48) 1971 Churchill-class nuclear-powered fleet submarine of the Royal Navy

HMS Conqueror was a British Churchill-class nuclear-powered fleet submarine which served in the Royal Navy from 1971 to 1990. She was the third submarine of her class, following the earlier Churchill and Courageous, all designed to face the Soviet threat at sea. She was built by Cammell Laird at Birkenhead.

<span class="mw-page-title-main">Carol Thatcher</span> English journalist (born 1953)

Carol Jane Thatcher is an English journalist, author and media personality. She is the daughter of Margaret Thatcher, the British prime minister from 1979 to 1990, and businessman Denis Thatcher.

Clive Sheridan Ponting was a senior British civil servant and historian. In 1984, he leaked classified documents about the sinking of the ARA General Belgrano in the Falklands War in 1982, which showed that government statements about the sinking were untrue. He was prosecuted under the Official Secrets Act, but argued that his actions were in the public interest, and was acquitted. At the time of his resignation from the civil service in 1985, he was a Grade 5, earning £23,000 per year.

<i>Nationwide</i> (TV programme) British news and current affairs programme

Nationwide was a BBC current affairs television programme which ran from 9 September 1969 until 5 August 1983. Originally broadcast on BBC 1 from Tuesday to Thursday, and then each weekday from 1972, it followed the early evening news, and included the regional opt-out news programmes.

<i>The Falklands Play</i> 2002 British television play

The Falklands Play is a dramatic account of the political events leading up to, and including, the 1982 Falklands War. The play was written by Ian Curteis, an experienced writer who had started his television career in drama, but had increasingly come to specialise in dramatic reconstructions of history. It was originally commissioned by the BBC in 1983, for production and broadcast in 1986, but was subsequently shelved by Controller of BBC One Michael Grade due to its pro-Margaret Thatcher stance and alleged jingoistic tone. This prompted a press furore over media bias and censorship. The play was not staged until 2002, when it was broadcast in separate adaptations on BBC Television and Radio. It was aired again on BBC4, 1 December 2020, over 18 years after it was last transmitted.

The cultural impact of the Falklands War spanned several media in both Britain and Argentina. A number of films and television productions emerged from the conflict. The first Argentine film about the war was Los chicos de la guerra in 1984. The BBC drama Tumbledown (1988) tells the story of a British officer paralysed from a bullet wound. The computer game Harrier Attack (1983) and the naval strategy game Strike Fleet (1987) are two examples of Falklands-related games. A number of fictional works were set during the Falklands War, including in Stephen King's novella The Langoliers (1990), in which the character Nick Hopewell is a Falklands veteran. The war provided a wealth of material for non-fiction writers; in the United Kingdom (UK) an important account became Max Hastings and Simon Jenkins' The Battle for the Falklands.

<span class="mw-page-title-main">Premiership of Margaret Thatcher</span> Period of the Government of the United Kingdom from 1979 to 1990

Margaret Thatcher's term as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom began on 4 May 1979 when she accepted an invitation of Queen Elizabeth II to form a government, and ended on 28 November 1990 upon her resignation. She was elected to the position in 1979, having led the Conservative Party since 1975, and won landslide re-elections for the Conservatives in 1983 and 1987. She gained intense media attention as Britain's first female prime minister, and was the longest-serving British prime minister of the 20th century. Her premiership ended when she withdrew from the 1990 Conservative leadership election. While serving as prime minister, Thatcher also served as the First Lord of the Treasury, the Minister for the Civil Service and the Leader of the Conservative Party.

USS <i>Luiseno</i> Tugboat of the United States Navy

USS Luiseno (ATF-156) was an Abnaki-class fleet ocean tug built for the United States Navy during World War II. Named after the Luiseño peoples, she was the only U.S. Naval vessel to bear the name.

<span class="mw-page-title-main">Total Exclusion Zone</span> Surrounding the Falkland Islands during the 1982 conflict

The Total Exclusion Zone (TEZ) was an area declared by the United Kingdom on 30 April 1982 covering a circle of radius 200 nautical miles from the centre of the Falkland Islands. During the Falklands War any sea vessel or aircraft from any country entering the zone was liable to be fired upon without further warning.

<i>Sink the Belgrano!</i>

Sink the Belgrano! is a 1986 satirical play in verse written by English playwright Steven Berkoff. It premiered at the Half Moon Theatre on 2 September 1986.

<i>The Iron Lady</i> (film) 2011 British biographical drama film

The Iron Lady is a 2011 biographical drama film based on the life and career of Margaret Thatcher, a British politician who was the longest-serving Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of the 20th century and the first woman to hold the office. The film was directed by Phyllida Lloyd and written by Abi Morgan. Thatcher is portrayed primarily by Meryl Streep, and, in her formative and early political years, by Alexandra Roach. Thatcher's husband, Denis Thatcher, is portrayed by Jim Broadbent and by Harry Lloyd as the younger Denis. Thatcher's longest-serving cabinet member and eventual deputy, Geoffrey Howe, is portrayed by Anthony Head.

<span class="mw-page-title-main">Death and funeral of Margaret Thatcher</span> 2013 ceremonial funeral in London

On 8 April 2013, former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher, Baroness Thatcher, died of a stroke at the Ritz Hotel, London, at the age of 87. On 17 April, she was honoured with a ceremonial funeral. Due to polarised opinions about her achievements and legacy, the reaction to her death was mixed across the UK, including contrasting praise, criticism, and celebrations of her life as well as celebrations of her death.

<span class="mw-page-title-main">Rejoice (Margaret Thatcher)</span> 1982 remark by Margaret Thatcher

"Rejoice" was a remark made by British prime minister Margaret Thatcher in Downing Street on 25 April 1982 following a statement read by Secretary of State for Defence John Nott on the successful recapture of South Georgia from Argentine forces, one of the first acts of the Falklands War. A journalist asked, "What happens next, Mr Nott?" at which point Thatcher intervened to state, "just rejoice at that news and congratulate our forces and the Marines", on which she and Nott headed back towards 10 Downing Street. As she reached the doorstep, Thatcher reiterated "rejoice" before entering the building. The words were controversial, with Thatcher's critics regarding them as jingoistic and triumphal, particularly regarding a military operation in which lives may have been lost. Thatcher's supporters regarded the words as a statement of support for British forces and a mark of the relief felt by Thatcher after a successful military operation. The phrase, often paraphrased as "rejoice, rejoice", has been used since in speech and art. Former prime minister Edward Heath uttered the words on Thatcher's resignation in 1990. Labour prime minister Tony Blair received dissent from his backbenchers in 2004 when, after the Iraq War, he asked the House of Commons "whatever mistakes have been made, rejoice that Iraq can have such a future".

<span class="mw-page-title-main">White flags over Port Stanley</span> Statement by Margaret Thatcher

At 10:15 pm (BST) on the night of 14 June 1982, British prime minister Margaret Thatcher announced to the House of Commons that negotiations had begun for the surrender of the Argentine invasion force in the Falkland Islands, ending the Falklands War. Her statement noted that "they are reported to be flying white flags over Port Stanley", the capital of the Falklands. This was based on an erroneous report from a front-line unit; in fact, no white flags are known to have been flown, though Argentine resistance ended, and a ceasefire was in place. The surrender was finalised by 1:30 am BST on 15 June. Thatcher's statement was welcomed from all sides in the House, and she left to join celebrating crowds in Downing Street. She later described the statement as "perhaps the proudest moment of my life".

The British government did not seriously consider using its nuclear weapons during the 1982 Falklands War. Britain had ratified the Treaty of Tlatelolco which established a nuclear-weapon-free zone across Latin America in 1969 and made a commitment in the United Nations during 1978 to not use these weapons against non-nuclear powers such as Argentina. The British War Cabinet never contemplated the use of nuclear weapons but Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher may have done so separately when considering options to respond to a potential serious defeat.

References

  1. 1 2 Russell Galbraith (2000). Inside Outside: A Biography of Tam Dalyell: The Man They Can't Gag. Edinburgh: Mainstream, 187.
  2. Julia Langdon (25 May 1983). "Sinking of Belgrano surfaces again", The Guardian, p. 2: "Mrs Thatcher insisted that the orders to sink the Belgrano were justified because it was a danger to British ships."
    "A moment of weakness, fathoms deep", The Guardian (editorial), 26 May 1983, p. 12: "Why, inquired Mrs. Gould, had the Tory War cabinet ordered the sinking of the Belgrano ...?"
  3. 1 2 "Margaret Thatcher's Belgrano critic Diana Gould dies, aged 85". BBC News. 9 December 2011. Retrieved 1 April 2022.
  4. 1 2 D. J. Thorp (2011). The Silent Listener. Stroud: The History Press, 169–171.
  5. 1 2 3 "Belgrano was heading to the Falklands, secret papers reveal". The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 1 April 2022.
  6. Clive Bloom (2015). Thatcher's Secret War: Subversion, Coercion, Secrecy and Government, 1974–90. Stroud: The History Press, 82–84.
  7. Stephen Coleman, Karen Ross (2015). The Media and The Public: "Them" and "Us" in Media Discourse. Malden, MA: John Wiley & Sons, 68–71.
  8. 1 2 3 4 "Diana Gould". The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 1 April 2022.
  9. 1 2 3 "There's a right way and a wrong way of grilling our politicians on". The Independent. 14 March 2005. Retrieved 1 April 2022.
  10. "TV's top 10 tantrums". 31 August 2001. Retrieved 1 April 2022.
  11. "Diana recalls tackling the Iron Lady". Wilts and Gloucestershire Standard. 4 May 2007. Retrieved 1 April 2022.
  12. 1 2 Stuart Prebble (2012). Secrets of the Conqueror: The Untold Story of Britain's Most Famous Submarine. London: Faber & Faber.
  13. 1 2 3 "TV Interview for BBC1 Nationwide (On the Spot) | Margaret Thatcher Foundation". margaretthatcher.org. Retrieved 1 April 2022.
  14. John Campbell (2008). Margaret Thatcher. Volume Two: The Iron Lady. London: Vintage (first published 2000), 199.
  15. Nick Robinson (2012). Live From Downing Street. London: Random House, 221.
  16. "The Belgrano Enquiry" Archived 5 September 2017 at the Wayback Machine , concordmedia.org.uk.
  17. "Thirty years on, Argentine survivors of the Belgrano sinking recall the moment Falklands war erupted around them". The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 1 April 2022.

Further reading